Byron Katie on Incest

28Aug2008 Filed under: Personal Development Author: graham

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I’ve been investigating Byron Katie’s Loving What Is recently. (I guess she’d say I’ve been doing the work on The Work!) There’s a lot there that I like. And a lot that I’ll need to come back to.

I’m more than happy learning from people with whom I might not share every opinion. So, my hesitations over some of what she says aren’t the end of the world. However, I’m sure I’m not the only person who raised an eyebrow or two over how she dealt with a woman who had experienced incest at the age of 8.

For those of you who don’t know, The Work is a simple yet powerful process of inquiry that involves asking four questions and then a ‘turnaround’:

1. Is it true?

2. Can I absolutely know it’s true?

3. How do I react when I believe that thought?

4. Who would I be without that thought/story?

Turn it around. (To self, other or an opposite.)

I’ve actually found that these simple questions lead to some rather profound realisations. However, it’s in the turnarounds that there is some real power for personal transformation. Some examples, from one of the official sites, include:

…“Paul doesn’t understand me” can be turned around to “Paul does understand me.” Another turnaround is “I don’t understand Paul.” A third is “I don’t understand myself.”

“Paul shouldn’t shout at me” turns around to:
- Paul should shout at me. (Obviously: In reality, he does sometimes. Am I listening?)
- I shouldn’t shout at Paul.
- I shouldn’t shout at me.
(In my head, am I playing over and over again Paul’s shouting? Who’s more merciful, Paul who shouted once, or me who replayed it a 100 times?)

Can you Turn Around Abuse?

Loving What is includes an account of the time Byron Katie leads an incest survivor through inquiry and turnarounds. It makes for uncomfortable reading, to say the least. The woman doing ‘The Work’ had been molested as an 8 year old by her step-father. Byron Katie is helps the woman see that she doesn’t have to live in terror from the memory – and resulting identity – of being a perpetual victim of abuse. She achieves this through turnaround, where she sees that she is abusing herself, by playing the events over and over in her mind. In fact, she has ‘abused’ herself in this way far more often than her step-father. But it doesn’t stop there.

She then turnsaround and accepts that she abused her stepfather! Apparently, the problem was that she allowed him to do what he did because she wanted his love. Like, I said, it makes uncomfortable reading.

However, the point – and this is easily missed when first read – is not that this is what happened. It’s not the purpose of The Work to convince us of anything. Instead, it’s more a case of showing us alternative story-lines and seeing which ones are less painful for us to live under. So, there’s a sense in which this woman is given the option of not considering herself a victim, but seeing if she might find more peace by viewing things differently.

Of course, that doesn’t change the fact the sexual abuse is a very serious and complex issue that is probably not best dealt with at the front of a Lecture Hall, by someone with no professional training. However, it does go some of the way to showing why it is that so many incest survivors have found Byron Katie’s work so helpful.

Here’s just one example.

What about you?

Do you have any experience with The Work? Have you found Byron Katie’s approach to things helpful? Has anyone else struggled with the incest dialogue in Loving What Is?

If you’re interested in exploring more, there are two MP3s available for download:

Incest and Abuse (1)
Incest and Abuse (2)

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9 Responses to “Byron Katie on Incest”

yvonne Spence
September 6th, 2008 at 10:24 am

Hi Graham,

This is an interesting post, and a good thing to bring to discussion. I have read the conversation you write about, and if I remember right, I did feel shocked at first. But you have missed something really crucial – I lent my book to someone, so this is my memory of it – there is a part where Katie asks the woman what her part in it was. She says something like: His part was this big, and holds her arms wide, and then: your part is this big, and holds her hands almost together. Her point, as I understand it, is that until we can acknowledge our own tiny part in something we can never be free of it, we are trapped in seeing ourselves as hopeless victims, and inclined to live our lives repeating victim patterns. I have noticed that believing I am victim in any way is very painful, and doesn’t bring peace. I’m not talking about sexual abuse specifically here, whenever we feel like a victim it hurts.
graham
September 30th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

Hi Yvonne,

Thanks for your comment – and sorry for taking so long to get back to you! I’ve been to the States and had to take some time to recover once we got back!

You’re absolutely right that Katie makes that distinction between his big role and her tiny part. I also think you’re right to suggest that the point is that ‘until we can acknowledge our own tiny part in something we can never be free of it, we are trapped in seeing ourselves as hopeless victims, and inclined to live our lives repeating victim patterns.’. I was hoping to allude that that point when I said, above, that this woman is given the option of not considering herself a victim.

Nevertheless, this still leaves me uncomfortable. It’s true that the woman would find more freedom in no longer seeing herself as a victim. Yet, it is untrue that she as an eight year old girl abused her father. It may be a clever turnaround, but it’s just not true and – I think – is not a good advert for the Work.

However, the turnaround I mentioned is not the only questionable (to me) one in that conversation. If I remember rightly, Byron Katie also leads her to say that she should apologise to her mother for not lying about it in court.

I’m not at all anti-Byron Katie (there don’t seem to be many of us who don’t either love or hate her!), but I do think that this issue was a dangerous example of how something as powerful as The Work is when used by someone without the academic training – and resultant code of ethics – of a professional counselor.

I’m intending to write a couple more posts on the topic, including my thoughts on the pros and cons of The Work, along with some possible ways that I think it could be tweaked and perhaps improved for a counselling scenario.
Ian Peatey
October 30th, 2008 at 12:21 am

Graham

I enjoyed reading this … maybe ‘enjoy’ is not an appropriate word in the context of sexual abuse. I’m happy when I see the Work being shared.

I have a slightly different take on the point of the turnaround you talk about that’s my own interpretation and not what’s written in Loving What Is.

As I understand it the Work is aimed at accepting and finding peace with reality .. neither condoning nor condemning it. In the case of the sexually abused 8 year old the reality is that it happened. Nothing can change that. By continually living it .. ‘he shouldn’t have done it!’ she’s fighting reality and that’s the root of her pain. He did do it, it’s hard to move on from it and, yes, it was terrible. But it happened. The ‘abuse’ by the daughter (in the turnaround) is about her role in the original, past event .. but about her role in keeping it alive in the present. She lives with the pain and the outrage again and again by continuing to ‘abuse’ her step-father with her judgements of him. I don’t think there is any value judgement of the daughter .. just an enquiry into the reality of what’s going on.

Going further I’m wondering if it’s controversial because we’re brought up to believe in the concept of right and wrong and that when someone does something ‘bad’ they deserve to be punished. The Work operates beyond right and wrong where reality is that good and bad things happen all the time … and we can find greater peace by accepting (not agreeing with) reality. And when we have peace within we are much better equipped to stop the ‘bad’ things from happening in the first place.

I’m curious about your reaction to any of this.

And maybe it wasn’t clear .. but I enjoy your writing!

Ian
graham
November 10th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

Thanks for a great comment, Ian! Sorry for the delay in replying. I’ve been off-line, after having been beaten up by my 5-month old baby girl!

I have a slightly different take on the point of the turnaround you talk about that’s my own interpretation and not what’s written in Loving What Is.

I think I completely agree with the point you make here:

By continually living it .. ‘he shouldn’t have done it!’ she’s fighting reality and that’s the root of her pain. He did do it, it’s hard to move on from it and, yes, it was terrible. But it happened. The ‘abuse’ by the daughter (in the turnaround) is [not] about her role in the original, past event .. but about her role in keeping it alive in the present.

(I’ve taken the liberty of adding what I presume was a missing word. Let me know if that’s wrong.)

That is actually how I took the words in the first place. However, looking back at the story, I’m not sure that it actually is what Byron Katie was getting at. Nevetheless, I think it is a helpful way to approach the account.

The Work operates beyond right and wrong where reality is that good and bad things happen all the time … and we can find greater peace by accepting (not agreeing with) reality. And when we have peace within we are much better equipped to stop the ‘bad’ things from happening in the first place.

Yeah, I can see that. And perhaps the trouble with reading these things is that we haven’t gone through the process of inquiry with the person involved, so we’re not in that place ‘beyond’ right and wrong. I’m not sure that one needs to believe that there is no such thing as right or wrong, because I don’t see The Work as making such absolute statements about reality. It seems to be more about giving someone a way to understand their experience of reality, that is less painful than what they are currently going through. In that sense, I’d suspect that your insight is spot-on.

Thanks again for your comment – and for your kind words.
Ian Peatey
November 11th, 2008 at 9:22 am

Good to see you back Graham!

I lent my copy of ‘Loving What Is’ (I knew it was a bad idea at the time) which is a pity because I was stimulated to go back and see what she actually wrote. Anyway .. we have a similar perspective on the meaning!

“It seems to be more about giving someone a way to understand their experience of reality, that is less painful than what they are currently going through.”

I like this description very much! And I agree it’s hard to get a real sense from reading about someone else’s process and that the Work doesn’t present any judgements about reality or about right and wrong.

Believing (or not) in concepts about ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ .. now there’s a great new topic for discussion

Ian
Jim Dodds
November 23rd, 2008 at 4:42 am

Dear Friends,
I have been in The Work since 2004. I would like o suggest to you that Th Work does come from a space where there is no such thing as right and wrong, and no individual who could be harmed by anything. Katie lives in a space where the categories of ordinary life are simply irrelevant an that is where the power of The Work arises. Don’t insulate yourself from its profound impact by watering it down.

Jim
graham
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:59 pm

Thanks for your comment, Jim. However, I’m not sure it’s completely relevant to this post. I’m not really questioning Byron Katie, though I don’t think that would be such a bad thing. This post is really just about the specific issue of applying The Work to the question of incest – and looking at one specific event in Loving What Is that I know lots of readers have trouble with.

I’m afraid that I don’t believe Byron Katie occupies a different place to you or I. She is merely a human. To elevate – and even immortalise – “spiritual” leaders is Sociology 101.

Having said that, if Byron Katie really does live ‘in a space where the categories of ordinary life are simply irrelevant’ then she is irrelevant to me. I’d much rather hear from a teacher than a guru any day.

I don’t mean to ridicule your beliefs, but I just don’t believe the hype. Byron Katie has done a great job of popularising and simplifying some well known ideas, to the benefit of many. Nothing more, nothing less.
Monking around with Byron Katie | Think Happy!
November 27th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

[...] you know, I’ve been thinking about Byron Katie lately. Although that post discussed some concerns, I’m actually pretty positive about The [...]
rox
November 17th, 2009 at 12:12 am

I have had the same concern about byron katie. Apparently there is a cult watch group that has been documenting her for a long time. Many people have had psychotic breaks while attending “the school” that she runs.

Many licensed therapists have expressed serious concerns over her treatment of this subject and the californian board of psychology has looked into her, however she has no licensure that they can remove.

Check out Cosmic Connie on Byron Katie here:
http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2009/08/katie-bar-door.html

This review of one of her books is hilarious:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2DB6ORZPCFA9L/ref=cm_pdp_rev_more?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview#R39CJC2K42GKDX

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